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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:24 am 
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You're prepared to make an offer? Surely you bought it didn't you?

No screenshot. Here's one -

Image



EDIT: Ah! I see your screenshot has come up now, I didn't see the information that one of the bidders was not registered! In that case of course you could make an offer. That is a bit odd and he pushed the price up quite a bit. Something fishy going on there.

In fact it looks like something very dodgy happened there. To go from £400 to £700 because of a nonregistered bidder is definitely something to complain about! You should get it for £411.03 (IMhO)

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......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:25 am 
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You've not seen the half of it! If you click on that bidder (0***t), this is what comes up:

Image

And even that's changed from last night, when I first clicked (didn't take a screenshot then, unfortunately) that showed that in the past 30 days that bidder - whose 0 indicates no purchases from eBay, right? - had made 20 bids on 18 items and had retracted 16 of those bids!!

ETA: I've now heard back from the seller, who is prepared to listen to an offer, but asked me what I meant by 'fault' and said that eBay used to be a good place to sell "old tech" but was now a scammers' paradise. So I've offered him one bid higher than the last legitimate one.

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:00 pm 
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If it helps, give him a link to this thread

You don't deserve to be screwed over like that.

I think the number in brackets is the measure of feedback received. It's not the number of items purchased.

I'm very surprised that eBay allow people who are not registered to bid at all!

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:52 pm 
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It seems it wasn't the seller's fault - he's done some research and apparently these phantom account bids are put there by retail sellers (of the more unscrupulous sort) who wish to boost prices to match their own selling prices.

Anyway, he's cancelled the transaction and intends to relist it as a BIN and give me first refusal. This will be somewhere around the £450 mark including postage, which seems perfectly fair to me.

Warning - I'll be on to you later asking how to install the system and apps onto the SSD!!

[PS They were registered at the time of bidding but cancelled shortly after, when not winning the item. Anyway, all's well...]

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:59 pm 
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MacBiter wrote:
It seems it wasn't the seller's fault - he's done some research and apparently these phantom account bids are put there by retail sellers (of the more unscrupulous sort) who wish to boost prices to match their own selling prices.

Anyway, he's cancelled the transaction and intends to relist it as a BIN and give me first refusal. This will be somewhere around the £450 mark including postage, which seems perfectly fair to me.

Warning - I'll be on to you later asking how to install the system and apps onto the SSD!!


Good! And no problem. You'll have to tell me what you want to do with it - do you want to have a dual boot system, do you want to run a fusion drive, do you want to install the system on the SSD alone?

The advantage of the fusion drive is you don't have to decide how much to put on the SSD and how much to put on the hard drive and then fiddle about with links or moving the user folder and other folders about. A Fusion drive looks after itself and seems to me to be pretty much bullet-proof, and is simple to do and transparent to use. And it's pretty fast. I mean a LOT fast compared with how it was on the hard drive.

At the moment I have a dual boot system on my MBP with Sierra in a 30 GB partition on the hard drive, the remainder of the hard drive and the whole of the SSD forms the fusion drive on which my main system in Mavericks is installed.

Just give me a call and I'll help you out with that, no problem.

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:49 am 
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Leewave wrote:

Good! And no problem. You'll have to tell me what you want to do with it - do you want to have a dual boot system, do you want to run a fusion drive, do you want to install the system on the SSD alone?

The advantage of the fusion drive is you don't have to decide how much to put on the SSD and how much to put on the hard drive and then fiddle about with links or moving the user folder and other folders about. A Fusion drive looks after itself and seems to me to be pretty much bullet-proof, and is simple to do and transparent to use. And it's pretty fast. I mean a LOT fast compared with how it was on the hard drive.

At the moment I have a dual boot system on my MBP with Sierra in a 30 GB partition on the hard drive, the remainder of the hard drive and the whole of the SSD forms the fusion drive on which my main system in Mavericks is installed.

Just give me a call and I'll help you out with that, no problem.

Thanks!

What I'd want is similar to you - a 50GB partition on the HD to hold High Sierra (though I have a sneaking feeling that I can't download it via Mavericks?).

Then the remainder of the HDD and the SSD could be a fusion with Mavericks on. Can that be done so that the system and applications are on the SSD and everything else on the HDD, or does having a fusion drive mean you have to accept where the OS puts what, and just grin and bear it?

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:42 am 
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You can't put a partition on it to hold High Sierra. Because the whole structure of the hard drive is rearranged as I'm sure you know. Anything less than HS can't use that - so basically it's incompatible with any lower system. You could put Sierra on another partition, that is not a problem. That's how I have mine. I guess if you want to boot into High Sierra you'll have to do that from an external SSD or hard drive.


I would suggest you use a Fusion drive for Mavericks. When you put the system back onto a Fusion drive, it knows where to put things and it will continually update them in the background so that the entire system and the Applications folder are kept on the SSD. Other files that are in regular use, such as working files, regularly used items - they are all kept on the SSD automatically. You don't have to think about it and you wouldn't notice where they are, it's all taken care of by Apple's marvellous Fusion software - and it works.

An alternative is to put the complete System and the Applications folder yourself on the SSD and your user folder on the hard drive and link the two. But that leaves a lot of free space on the SSD that you're not going to use. Which is a waste. You might as well put a Fusion drive on it. I can walk you through the steps needed to do all of this if we can establish a telephone conversation one time or use FaceTime or Skype or something else to assist, but as I mentioned last night I'm struggling to get FaceTime and messages to work because it says Apple tells me there is an unknown error even though I have changed my Apple password (again) - I can log into iCloud but I can't use FaceTime or iMessage, both on Mavericks and my recent installation of Sierra. I may have to ask people on this forum if there is an answer to that but I haven't thought of yet apart from starting from scratch! Or going entirely to the latest operating system, which I'm not going to do.

Basically what you need to do are the following things.

You partition a drive in advance of putting that on there to hold a small partition for another operating system but it can't be HS.


I will tell you in outline what I have done - it's the way I would suggest you do it too.

Quote:
1) Update your Time Machine backup for Mavericks. This is your Belt and Braces back up.

2) Clone your entire Mavericks system to an external hard drive.

3) Reboot into your newly made clone, check it out to see if it's functional and works properly.
. . ..[Doesn't really apply here, I wrote that thinking along the lines of a single computer]

4) Put the new iMac into Target Disk Mode - connect using a FireWire cable to your old iMac. Open Disk Utility and partition the hard drive on the new iMac into two, choosing a size that you want for your second system leaving the largest part for everything else. I have Sierra installed on my MacBook Pro on a 30 GB partition but with no significant data added to it and it only takes up about 12 GB so there is plenty of space remaining. I can link into various user folders on the Mavericks fusion drive, because I use an identical short username on both Mavericks and Sierra.

The long username is just the description and that can be different, but the short username must be the same if you want to transparently swap data between the two.

5) Get into Terminal. Run the commands necessary to build a Fusion drive, choosing the major data portion of the hard drive and the entire SSD as the two components to form it. We can talk about that later. It takes five minutes.

Caveat If you want an operational recovery partition you have to check this out first and make sure it's on there already, it should still be on there but you have to think carefully about how to do that before committing to splitting the hard drive up. Actually if you run the OS installer it will make sure that there is a recovery partition somewhere and if you clone with Carbon Copy Cloner, that also puts the recovery partition on somewhere - but neither of them can put a recovery partition on an existing Fusion drive. So it will have to be on the remaining hard drive part if there isn't already one on the SSD.

You just need to run diskutil list in Terminal to see what is what before you proceed further.

Basically, you probably will want to retain a recovery partition, and you need to split up the rest of the hard drive - or - the SSD - so that you can have one partition for the second OS and the remaining major parts go into making the Fusion drive. It's not difficult to do, but you have to think about it in advance before committing and getting to the next stage of installing stuff.


6) Clone your entire Mavericks system from the old iMac onto the Fusion drive that results.

7) Install whatever second system you want - either by cloning it (by far the easiest way) - or by installing fresh onto the small partition you've left on the hard drive. You could actually partition the SSD if you wanted to do that, in order to have a fast installation of the second OS too, but it seems a waste to me, you've only got 128 GB to play with and I would prefer to put up with a marginally slower second OS, but it's your choice. That's a decision to make right at the beginning.


All being well, that's all you need to do. Things to watch out for are to make sure that the recovery partition is on there somewhere (if you want one - you don't actually need one). And that the right partitions are used for the right things! It's difficult to explain it all but it's easy when you look at it on the screen, and you can keep notes on a scrap of paper about which partition name is which. Terminal describes the function of each partition that you have, which includes the Recovery partition, the Boot partition and the EFI partitions.

Image

In the case of my MacBook Pro - diskutil list

disk0 is the 120 GB SSD

disk1 is the 750 GB hard drive

disk2 is the composite descriptor of the Fusion drive and I named it Mavericks

The Fusion drive is comprised of the partition identifier disk0s3 of the SSD, and disk1s2 of the hard drive.

Sierra is installed on the partition disk0s2 on the SSD.


This command does not examine the Fusion drive - there is another Terminal command to look at the Fusion drive, that is diskutil cs list

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


Last edited by Leewave on Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:46 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Leewave wrote:
You can't put a partition on it to hold High Sierra. Because the whole structure of the hard drive is rearranged as I'm sure you know. Anything less than HS can't use that - so basically it's incompatible with any lower system.

Had they changed things now? When HS was released only SSD got changed, HDD and fusion drives were left as HFS+

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Yes I think they have. Macbiter wants to run Mavericks on a Fusion drive. It cannot be combined with HS on the same drive.

AFAIK!

If there is a possibility of running both on the same disks, that is a possibility to be explored by MB …

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Before I respond in depth to your earlier post Dave, there are two points I should make.

1. I want to make a clean install of Mavericks this time (which won't cause the hassles of last time, plus it should be 'cleaner') then copy users and applications over from Time Mach. So my first activity will have to be wiping both drives on the new Mac, right?

2. I tried to download Sierra a few months back, so the App Store would at least register that I'd done it. Unfortunately I couldn't download it using Mavericks, then HS came out so Sierra isn't available now. What I do have is an installer for Yosemite which was downloaded when I was still using 10.6. I also have a version of EC but would I be correct that this won't work, as it's the 'special version' for use upgrading from 10.6 to EC? Does this mean I'm stuck with Yosemite, which is only one OS higher than Mav? (In which case, there would be little point in having the second partition as Yosemite + Mavericks isn't going to yield any real advantage).

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:01 am 
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I agree a clean installation of Mavericks is a good plan, I generally do that myself and then use setup assistant to bring my data in. Of course once you've made a fusion drive you can run the Mavericks installer to install clean onto it and then use setup assistant, if that's what you choose. Or any other method you prefer to get your data on the computer! I would not use Time Machine as a source of your information because it's very slow. Since you've already got your information on your existing iMac, just point setup assistant to that via TDM.

That's not specially difficult. It's all straightforward and methodical - that's all. It's just one step after another and it just takes time. Once you try you will not be so worried about it.


Not sure about part 2 but in part 1 all you need to do is repartition either the SSD into two or the hard drive into two. Check where the recovery partition is and hopefully it will still be there after you repartition it but I'm not entirely sure. If you need to install a copy of the recovery drive, Carbon Copy Cloner can do that using the Disk Centre or whatever they call it.

Before you do any of the fusion commands make sure your disk has a Mavericks or Sierra recovery partition somewhere. I suppose either type of recovery partition would work for both systems - to get into them and do basic actions.

I'm looking at my spiel about what I did on the MacBook Pro, I remember I previously had Sierra on the hard drive - but because I wanted it to be faster I thought I might as well redo it all and put Sierra on the SSD. So I updated my clone of Mavericks on my external and then erased and repartitioned the SSD, checked that I still had a recovery partition somewhere and then built another Fusion drive again, then cloned back my system onto it. Then I put Sierra on the partition I had reserved for it as I've described above.

That all went very easily, even though it takes a few hours to do all the cloning and installation and stuff. The longest time taken is the cloning, setting up the foundations has to be done first though - because as mentioned before, as far as I'm aware at the moment you can't add a recovery partition to a fusion drive, so it has to be done externally to the fusion drive, i.e. elsewhere on one of the disks. I think the boot partition will be automatically there once you run the Mavericks installer or the Sierra installer. The EFI partitions are automatically there too, you don't have to think about that.

Now to "fuse" the two drives into one logical volume using some Terminal magic.
Open Terminal and enter the following commands:

diskutil list

Note the disk identifier for the (partitions you need) on the SSD and the hard drive. They will probably be disk0 and disk1 - if whole disks - or the specific partitions, as mentioned.

diskutil cs create Fusion disk0s3 disk1s2 (for example - see your info)

This tells the new corestorage software to create a combined logical volume group named "Fusion" from the two disks you have identified. Choose a different name if you wish. After a few seconds the terminal will show the resulting combined logical volume identifier.

diskutil cs list

(This step is redundant but useful for information's sake - the LVG identifier is already available after the previous command). Copy the identifier data on the line after 'Logical Volume Group' - e.g. 677E1EA1-6DDD-40E1-9FA5-94AE12FC5CBB

diskutil coreStorage createVolume 677E1EA1-6DDD-40E1-9FA5-94AE12FC5CBB jhfs+ "Name desired" 100%

Note the capital S and the capital V in the previous line. This creates a journalled HFS+ volume called "Name desired".

Put the chosen name of the disk in quotes if it contains spaces, otherwise quotes are not required. You can always rename it later anyway. Some people are specifying a size, for example 300g means you will create a 300 GB drive, alternatively it is probably more sensible just to specify 100% which will use the complete space available.

exit

This just exits from the current terminal command sequence. Close terminal, it's not required any further.



I don't know why you can't download Sierra - all I know is I have a copy of the installers from Panther to Sierra! I might even have Cheetah somewhere too. Not that I will ever need most of them, I just copied them while the opportunity was there.

So I'm sure there are people on this forum who could help you get hold of Sierra if you needed it, see another thread in Tech about that, just download a copy from wetransfer while it's still current, I think wetransfer keep files up for a week or something before removing them, don't they? and then it deletes them automatically...

Image

_ _ _ _ _


So what's happening about this new iMac? Did you suggest to the seller he might as well do a personal deal with you since he's going to give you first refusal anyway on a buy it now option. I don't see that eBay can complain if he hasn't actually listed it yet, it's only if the listing is running and current that eBay don't like people negotiating, if it's not listed he is entitled to do whatever he likes with it. He won't have to pay any PayPal fees or listing fees if he's got a ready buyer lined up!

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:31 am 
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Yes, I've bought it now for £450 including postage, which I think was a good deal (though I'm waiting for it to arrive!). I think we were both scammed by the Phantom Bidder, so the seller notified eBay that the purchaser had changed their mind and cancelled purchase. He then relisted it as a BIN and let me know when he had done that, so I jumped in and bought it. We both agreed in the end to do it 'properly' so we both had eBay and PayPal protection.

I think the problem I had downloading Sierra was that general problem I had with the App Store which I told you about a while back? I seem to remember that after upgrade to Mavericks it would do all the updates to do with Apple's system but it subsequently failed to do any 3rd party upgrades or purchases, failing at the first second or two of download. This also happened with Sierra.

As for checking for recovery partitions, once I've created a fusion drive and wiped both drives immediately prior to the install (which I assume I have to do if I'm 'downgrading' the OS?), surely the Mavericks installer will create a recovery partition as a standard part of the install?

One final thing - I don't have any FW800 leads, only FW400, so I will need to buy one (from Amazon?) before I can do any TDM-ing.

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 am 
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Excellent!

If you need the Sierra installer or the El Capitan installer, they are both up and running right now on Mike Smith's thread. 4 days left ...

Can I still get maveriks

Try it if you feel lucky! The Mavericks installer CANNOT create a new partition on a Fusion drive! If it can do it on the rest of the hard disk - it may do - but my experience is that it can't and won't. When it's installing it looks at the partition it is pointing at - i.e. the Fusion drive. It doesn't see any other disks. If you want to go through the whole installation process you will have to wait until the end to find out whether it's made one or not! You can always use CCC to add one to a standard disk if you've already used it to transfer a copy of Mavericks before. At least you can with version CCC 3.5

Like I said. Sort out the recovery partition (if you want one) before you take yourself down a long road and find out it didn't do it in the end! Otherwise you're wasting an awful lot of time. I've done that before :D - it's not a problem but you'll just have to start again from scratch :o

To downgrade an OS all you need to do is erase or repartition the disk in question first. It's not complicated but if the installer sees a previous higher number installation it will complain and prevent you proceeding. Re-partitioning necessarily includes erasing.

If you are using TDM a lot of these problems are circumvented easily, because you're not booted into the computer you want to update! Obviously you can't run a computer if it doesn't have an OS on it - and if the installed OS is higher than the one to install, it won't do it. But if you connect to it via TDM you can do anything you like to it. You could also make a bootable installer and boot into that, but you can't use it to erase the disk because an Apple OS installer doesn't include a copy of Disk Utility. If you boot into the Recovery partition beforehand I guess you could but it gets more complicated. That's an alternative method to get round the downgrading scenario but it's awfully faffy. Use TDM, it's the simple answer if you have two Macs.

FireWire leads: Yes, you can get them quite cheaply on Amazon or elsewhere. FIREWIRE 800 to 800 9 Pin to 9 Pin Cable Lead 1.4m

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:12 pm 
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Leewave wrote:
Excellent!

If you need the Sierra installer or the El Capitan installer, they are both up and running right now on Mike Smith's thread. 4 days left ...

Great - I'll look at the Sierra installer.


The Mavericks installer CANNOT create a new partition on a Fusion drive! If it can do it on the rest of the hard disk - it may do - but my experience is that it can't and won't. When it's installing it looks at the partition it is pointing at - i.e. the Fusion drive. It doesn't see any other disks. If you want to go through the whole installation process you will have to wait until the end to find out whether it's made one or not! You can always use CCC to add one to a standard disk if you've already used it to transfer a copy of Mavericks before. At least you can with version CCC 3.5

I'm a bit 'non comprendo' about all that. I just assumed any Mac OS Installer will create a recovery partition, ever since Lion.

Like I said. Sort out the recovery partition (if you want one) before you take yourself down a long road and find out it didn't do it in the end! Otherwise you're wasting an awful lot of time. I've done that before :D - it's not a problem but you'll just have to start again from scratch :o

Still not sure what you're talking about, at least in terms of the sequence of doing things (I'll say more below).


To downgrade an OS all you need to do is erase or repartition the disk in question first. It's not complicated but if the installer sees a previous higher number installation it will complain and prevent you proceeding. Re-partitioning necessarily includes erasing.

Now you've totally baffled me. I've always understood (and even done it - erasing Lion and installing Snow Leopard) that the ONLY way you can downgrade an OS is to erase the disk and start over from scratch?


If you are using TDM a lot of these problems are circumvented easily, because you're not booted into the computer you want to update! Obviously you can't run a computer if it doesn't have an OS on it - and if the installed OS is higher than the one to install, it won't do it. But if you connect to it via TDM you can do anything you like to it. You could also make a bootable installer and boot into that, but you can't use it to erase the disk because an Apple OS installer doesn't include a copy of Disk Utility. If you boot into the Recovery partition beforehand I guess you could but it gets more complicated. That's an alternative method to get round the downgrading scenario but it's awfully faffy. Use TDM, it's the simple answer if you have two Macs.

Again, I'm baffled. I have ALWAYS seen Disk Utility in an Installer - it's in the Utilities menu when you get past the initial languages screen, but before you do any installing.


FireWire leads: Yes, you can get them quite cheaply on Amazon or elsewhere. FIREWIRE 800 to 800 9 Pin to 9 Pin Cable Lead 1.4m


Here's the list of things I see that need to be done, but not clear on the correct sequence:

    erase the two disks on the new MAC (using DU via TDM?)
    create a fusion drive from the 1TB HDD and 128 SSD
    partition the HDD to hold a 50 GB partition for Sierra
    install Mavericks clean onto the fusion drive
    copy Users & Applications over (using TDM is quicker, you say?)

By the way, you remember all the problems I was having with other user accounts after upgrading to Mavericks, e.g. very slow loading? Well, today, I copied everything from the two main 'other' accounts, putting everything into named folders then dropping those into the Drop Box of my main account. Back there, I deleted the two accounts, then recreated them, and put the named folders into each's Drop box. Logging into each in turn, I painstakingly moved any music, pictures, documents, downloads, desktop, movies etc from the Drop Box into the relevant Home folder, got everything looking pretty much as it used to, then logged out and back in again a few times. Result? Both accounts are so much quicker to load, dramatically in one case - from between 3 to 5 minutes, down to less than 30 seconds.

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:32 pm 
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I know it's confusing, because there are a lot of things to talk about.

But you cannot install the recovery partition on a fusion drive. Current Apple installation software does not have the ability to repartition a fusion drive. At least the last time I looked it couldn't. Installing a recovery partition involves repartitioning the drive. Therefore if you want one, you have to sort one out in advance of making the fusion drive. Simples, no?

Just experiment yourself and see where you get to, I'm just telling you what I have discovered through a lot of messing about with this stuff. I may get it wrong some of the time but I've done fusion things a quite a few times now. I may forget some detail, it can happen.

The way to downgrade is to erase the disk and start again. That's what I said.


Sequence for doing things:

Erase any pre-existing OS, by re-partitioning, by erasing, or by hitting with a large hammer

Partition one of the disks with a small partition for Sierra, suggest SSD for speed or hard drive for slothfulness

Sort out a recovery partition if it's not still there after all that. CCC can do it

Build a fusion drive using the largest remaining partitions of the two drives

Install Mavericks on the fusion drive

Install Sierra/El Capitan/Snow Leopard/(?) on the small partition


Choose whichever method you prefer to get your data onto your computer. I've told you the way that is the least time-consuming and least hassle that I have found and is the way that I prefer, that's all.

If you don't use two computers and target disk mode, then good luck doing it another way. It won't be quite as easy.

Does an Apple OS installer have disk utility in it? I didn't think it did. If I'm wrong, sorry

I know there is a copy of disk utility with a recovery partition but I also remember that I've been thwarted before, having to cancel an installation because the target disk was not sorted out properly yet, and I seem to recall that there isn't a disk utility option in an installer... I also remember having done writing with zeros, long installations and tediously long importing of data from a Time Machine backup, and everything else necessary - only to discover a few hours later that there was no sodding recovery partition anywhere in sight!


You don't have to follow any of these suggestions - just have a go at it and see where you get to, I'm just trying to save you time.

After all you can always wipe everything and start again if it didn't work out first time round, disks can be erased multiple times :)

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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