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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:04 pm 
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Leewave wrote:
Sequence for doing things:

Erase any pre-existing OS, by re-partitioning, by erasing, or by hitting with a large hammer

Ah, so that CAN be done after all, even if the installed OS is higher?


Partition one of the disks with a small partition for Sierra, suggest SSD for speed or hard drive for slothfulness

Nah, it'll be the HDD as won't be used unless in dire need...

Sort out a recovery partition if it's not still there after all that. CCC can do it

Ok, this is where I'm confused. A recovery partition is placed there by the installer. How can I install a RP before I've installed Mavericks???


Build a fusion drive using the largest remaining partitions of the two drives

:tu:

Install Mavericks on the fusion drive

:tu:

Install Sierra/El Capitan/Snow Leopard/(?) on the small partition

:tu:

Choose whichever method you prefer to get your data onto your computer. I've told you the way that is the least time-consuming and least hassle that I have found and is the way that I prefer, that's all.

TDM for me I'm guessing, as I've now bought a lead!


If you don't use two computers and target disk mode, then good luck doing it another way. It won't be quite as easy.

:tu:

Does an Apple OS installer have disk utility in it? I didn't think it did. If I'm wrong, sorry

Well, all the ones I've used have - you choose your language, get to the next screen (which is where I think you choose the disk for installing on?) and there is a small set of menus at the top, one of which is Utilities, and that offers DU


I know there is a copy of disk utility with a recovery partition but I also remember that I've been thwarted before, having to cancel an installation because the target disk was not sorted out properly yet, and I seem to recall that there isn't a disk utility option in an installer... I also remember having done writing with zeros, long installations and tediously long importing of data from a Time Machine backup, and everything else necessary - only to discover a few hours later that there was no sodding recovery partition anywhere in sight!


You don't have to follow any of these suggestions - just have a go at it and see where you get to, I'm just trying to save you time.

After all you can always wipe everything and start again if it didn't work out first time round, disks can be erased multiple times :)


Thanks Dave :tu:

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"If it ain't broke, we can fix it" (© Tim Cook, Jonny Ive)

Core i5 2011 21.5" iMac 12,1 2.5 GHz 12GB RAM OS X 10.9.5


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:36 pm 
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Well, one way to install a system on a computer is to make a bootable installer, so that you don't have to use any system on the computer at all, and you are then free to erase any system that it might have.

Another way is to use another computer and target disk mode.

Another way is to remove the hard drive put it in a caddy and install to it that way.

Any of these ways can be used to downgrade a computer or fiddle with it.

But if you are booted into the computer itself, it's pretty hard to work on its own disk while it's running from the disk. An Apple installer is designed to work on an existing system and update it. It is not designed to downdate it. You need to boot from an external system to do this. It is generally not designed to install clean - but you can do that onto a blank disk. Apple do not advertise this possibility.


Moving on to recovery partitions.

If you're starting with a blank disk the labourious way to make sure you have a recovery partition is to run the Mavericks installer from beginning to end and then stop. Then erase the Mavericks partition alone by combining it with your SSD in its entirety to form a fusion drive - and then install Mavericks again onto the fusion drive. That way you will have a recovery partition external to the fusion drive. But it takes a long time to install twice - and it seems like a long winded effort. I've done that a few times before I realised that CCC can do it much easier. CCC can add one to a standard disk, just like that. Bing.

You might already have a recovery partition on one of the disks on your computer when you get it. I don't know what system that will be the recovery partition for. But once you start repartitioning disks you may well lose it.

When you use the installer it puts a recovery partition on the disk by default. True.

However, I'm telling you that a recovery partition cannot be added to a fusion drive - unless Apple have changed things since I last tried it. I know this to be true because I have been trying this fusion stuff since 2012. I have used fusion drives continuously since they were first introduced by Apple. I've also tried using the SSD for the applications folder and the system and putting the user folder on the hard drive. That works brilliantly as well. There is no problem with doing that, except you don't have the dynamic fusion advantage, which optimises the space used on the SSD automatically.

I have moved systems from one computer to another between external disks, fusion drives, internal disks, SSDs in caddies in optical drive positions, SSDs in main hard drive positions, fusion drives using an SSD connected to a slow PATA optical connection (Not reliable), SSDs connected to SATA I connections, SATA II connections, SATA III connections. Fusion drives comprised of a memory stick and external drive, I've tried all sorts of things with fusion drives. It's been fun. I discovered that fusion drives generally work whatever you do, they seem to be pretty much bullet-proof. But if you want a recovery partition you'll have to find another place for it.

I have come to the realisation that a recovery partition cannot be added to a fusion drive. Therefore, if you want a fusion drive and you also want a recovery partition, the recovery partition has to be sorted out beforehand otherwise you may find there isn't one. There maybe one already on one of those disks when you get it. You'll just have to look at it and find out what's what and make a rational decision about what you want to do. I'm just telling you that it may not be as straightforward as you hope. You've just got to use your brain and think about it.

If you try to install Mavericks on your fusion drive you will find that there is no recovery partition within the fusion drive. There may be a recovery partition on the disk from before, but that will be external to the fusion drive, it's of no consequence where it may be as long as you have a recovery partition somewhere - then you can always boot into it when you need it - which is the whole purpose and Raison D'être of a recovery system, being able to reboot into it. There may not be one. But there probably is one. It rather depends on what you've done to the disks since you got it. If you take a disk and repartition it into one it will remove everything that was on there before including any recovery partition or other special partitions, such as a boot partition. All that you will be left with is the EFI partition and the data partition, as far as I know.

Rather than ask a lot of questions about this perhaps you should just get your computer and experiment with it. Alternatively I can tell you how to do it step by step. But maybe you'd just like to have a go yourself, I don't want to tell you what to do step-by-step, but if you wanted to know, I've tried.

Carbon copy cloner version 3.5 has the ability, using its disk centre, (if you have previously cloned a copy of Mavericks and it has saved an image of the RP), to ADD a new recovery partition on an HFS+ formatted disk while leaving the existing data untouched. You just instruct CCC to add a RP to the disk you specify.

I would advise you look at your recovery partition situation before you make a fusion drive. That's all I'm saying. End of story.


Beginning of a new story. Recovery partitions are not strictly necessary. They are just nice to have.


Moving on: if an installer has a copy of disk utility in it then I'm wrong and mistaken, maybe they do. I didn't think that they did but maybe that's just an error in my memory.


You might also think about using TRIM Enabler by Cindori, there is a paid version now but I have the earlier version which is all you need.

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:36 am 
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Ok

1. I can live without a Recovery Partition I guess, if I have a Mavericks installer plus Time Machine? As you say, they are not absolutely essential but possibly a 'nice to have'.

2. Presumably CCC can't add an RP to a fusion drive either?

3. The only way I know to look and see what RP's there are is to boot the computer with the Option key held down, which will show all attached bootable systems. But having seen what there is, there is presumably no other way to 'see' a RP and copy it to an external HDD ready to copy it back when ready?

4. I've never cloned my Mavericks system, and don't really want to. There's going to be enough to do as it is. Anyway, my CCC is 3.3 and I'm assuming 3.5 is a 'paid for' version? Also, cloning would negate my doing a clean install.

Should I logically forget having a Recovery Partition in the circumstances, as there's no quick and easy way to get one?

One possible other alternative: create a 40GB partition for Sierra, and an extra 20GB partition for Mavericks & install 'bare bones' Mavericks to it (a Custom install excluding everything but the actual System), which will create a RP. THEN create the fusion drive and install Mavericks in full on it, and use TDM or Time Machine to copy all my data across.

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"If it ain't broke, we can fix it" (© Tim Cook, Jonny Ive)

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:24 am 
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Carbon Copy Cloner does create an archive of the Recovery HD volume on a Fusion Drive. I have a Fusion Drive installed and my version of CCC is set up like this.

Image

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:31 am 
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Oh that's interesting! Are you sure it's actually ON the fusion drive and not on the disk external to that?

Run the Terminal command diskutil list to see what partitions you have.

And I'm sure that CCC4 and presumably CCC5 can also handle RPs, and I'm also fairly sure that Chris can update CCC 3.3 to 3.5.7 by following the update procedure. CCC 3 is the non-paid-for version, donationware.

As mentioned in the blurb that Jonah/Chris1 has posted the location of the RP is saved as a disk image by CCC.

Image

Really, Chris2, it's not so difficult to sort out. I can help if you like, by voice and screen sharing at the time.

To force CCC to copy your Mavericks RP, just do a mini-clone to an external and just abort it after it has started.
(the RP is copied before it gets into the real clone) Or do a full clone - but deselect your user folder and other large folders to minimise the time taken.

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Unfortunately CCC needs 3.5 or later to run in Mavericks and that's a paid-for version. Last time I used it was 3.3 in Snow Leopard (which is not supposed to run there, but it did). And those earlier versions don't have Preferences either.

What about my last suggestion, installing a bare bones Mavericks on a small partition just to get the RP?

ETA: I've copied the old CCC 3.3 into Snow Leopard Server in Parallels, and it runs there. I could try cloning the bare bones into a clone to give me a Mavericks RP?

_________________
"If it ain't broke, we can fix it" (© Tim Cook, Jonny Ive)

Core i5 2011 21.5" iMac 12,1 2.5 GHz 12GB RAM OS X 10.9.5


Last edited by MacBiter on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Yes - your last suggestion would work but it's way over the top and unnecessary to go to such complication.

All you need to do when you get your computer is install Mavericks on the hard drive to make it add a Mavericks recovery partition.

After checking the status of the Hard Drive on the computer using diskutil list
- If it doesn't look like you want it to look, go through the following in sequence:

1) Use Disk Utility to partition the hard disk into ONE partition diskutil list

2) Install Mavericks onto it diskutil list, Start and abort a Mavericks clone to copy Recovery HD.dmg to your hard drive
... check /Library/Application Support/com.bombich.ccc/Recovery HD.dmg exists, double-click to mount to check

3) + ADD second partition to said drive, choosing a 30 GB hard drive partition for Sierra diskutil list
... (or less, ... or more if you want to put a lot of stuff in it)

4) Set up Fusion drive using largest data partition of hard drive plus all of the SSD
... 2x Fusion commands; diskutil list; diskutil cs list

5) Install Mavericks clean onto Fusion drive

6) Install Sierra clean onto Sierra partition


DONE

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


Last edited by Leewave on Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Except if HS is on there, I won't be able to install Mavericks!

Hey I'm off for (regular...) therapy, I'll return to this headache later. Dammit, the new computer hasn't even arrived yet!

_________________
"If it ain't broke, we can fix it" (© Tim Cook, Jonny Ive)

Core i5 2011 21.5" iMac 12,1 2.5 GHz 12GB RAM OS X 10.9.5


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Well using DU via TDM you can repartition into one both the SSD and the HD - can't you?

They will just be blank disks after that.

Good luck with the therapy.

It's my fault. :P


PS. CCC 3.5.7 can be downloaded from here I think you can use it on trust until you decide to pay for it. The official info implies it's not compatible with Mavericks, but it is, I've used it many times to clone Mav and it hasn't given me any trouble. Perhaps some feature is missing but it works fine for what you will need here.

_________________
......................1952
...............Effie Madge Mabel Biddie
...................See them on the beach
......................Or in New York City

.............Tina Louise & Hazel & Mavis
Can you name, name, name, name them all today
Can you name, name, name, name them all today

......................


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:30 pm 
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I'm going to start a new topic...

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"If it ain't broke, we can fix it" (© Tim Cook, Jonny Ive)

Core i5 2011 21.5" iMac 12,1 2.5 GHz 12GB RAM OS X 10.9.5


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